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The Random Phonology Thread - Page 15 - UniLang

The Random Phonology Thread

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-14, 12:18

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Aaaaaahh. I knew the whole thing of no fixed point, but that's helpful. Thanks! So it'd be:
/ʌ/, /ä/, /æ/, /e̞/, /i/, /o̞/, /ə/, /u̽/, /ɵ̞/, /ø̞/, /y/

I would leave off the diacritics. Remember, phonemic representations are chosen on the basis of convenience. It's routine to use, say, /e/ for [ɛ] even if, given the phonology of the language, [e] is more likely to be an allophone of /i/ than of /e/.

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:1)the affricates, though they appear, are not separately represented in the orthography (except ts)
2)there are others possible, such as /ks gz/, /kθ gð/, and /pʃ bʒ/

In that case, these aren't "affricates", they're clusters. What's the rationale for giving a selection of them a line in the phoneme chart?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-14, 13:01

linguoboy wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:1)the affricates, though they appear, are not separately represented in the orthography (except ts)
2)there are others possible, such as /ks gz/, /kθ gð/, and /pʃ bʒ/

In that case, these aren't "affricates", they're clusters. What's the rationale for giving a selection of them a line in the phoneme chart?
To be honest, I don't understand why people ever do that. I was just trying to follow convention. :?
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-14, 14:12

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:To be honest, I don't understand why people ever do that. I was just trying to follow convention. :?

"Precedent is only the easiest way to go wrong." Here's a rule to live by: Don't use a technical term in something you post until you know what it means.

Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affricate#Affricates_vs._stop.E2.80.93fricative_sequences
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-15, 0:11

thanks.
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-15, 6:01

Speaking of which, it looks like you just went through that very article and picked affricates at random. If this is a Germanic language, where did they come from? And the palatal consonants?

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby amateur » 2014-05-16, 10:53

mōdgethanc wrote:
amateur wrote:- I can consider adding /ɲ/, but this will require me to remove /n/

Why?

Nevermind, I've decided to make both /n/ and /ʎ/ alveolopalatal consonants instead.
mōdgethanc wrote:
amateur wrote:/ð/ is considered a rhotic

Why?

There are a lot of sounds that can work as rhotics, but I can't see how that one could possibly ever be one. It's too much unlike the others.

Because it sounds like one to me?

I thought rhotics were chosen entirely on arbitrary criteria set by the designer of the language's orthography, since there seems to be no common feature of the rhotic consonants of languages?

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-16, 13:38

mōdgethanc wrote:Speaking of which, it looks like you just went through that very article and picked affricates at random. If this is a Germanic language, where did they come from? And the palatal consonants?
There are many sound changes that made that, but most of them have to do with initial and repeated consonants.
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-16, 16:24

Yeah, obviously, but could you explain what some of those changes are, maybe?
amateur wrote:I thought rhotics were chosen entirely on arbitrary criteria set by the designer of the language's orthography, since there seems to be no common feature of the rhotic consonants of languages?
No. Stops cannot be rhotics, for one thing.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Thon » 2014-05-16, 23:50

Really? Not even the Inuktitut /ɢ/?

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-17, 3:13

mōdgethanc wrote:Yeah, obviously, but could you explain what some of those changes are, maybe?
Two examples:
Aspirated /kʰ/ (kh) became more and more like actual /kh/, which equalized to /kx/.
Sch (/ɧ/) became /ʃ/, then /ɕ/, then /ç/.
But of course, knowing my track record with these things, you will say this is unrealistic and will never happen. Go ahead. I'm used to it.
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-17, 7:02

Thon wrote:Really? Not even the Inuktitut /ɢ/?
Just because it's spelled <r> doesn't make it a rhotic. I've seen Arabic names with /ɣ/ transliterated into Hebrew with the letter for /ʁ/, because that's the closest sound, but it's not a rhotic in Arabic. (Also note that just because /ʁ/ is written with a flipped capital <r> doesn't mean it's always a rhotic either, although it is in Hebrew.)

However, we run into the problem of defining what exactly a rhotic is, and I'm afraid the only answer to that is "it sounds like one".
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Aspirated /kʰ/ (kh) became more and more like actual /kh/, which equalized to /kx/.
See, this is a plausible change, but why would it affect only one plosive and not all of them? (See the High German consonant shift: /p, t, k/ > /pf, ts, x/.)
Sch (/ɧ/) became /ʃ/, then /ɕ/, then /ç/.
Not impossible, but it would be far more likely to go the opposite way. Also, you need to explain where /ɧ/ came from.
But of course, knowing my track record with these things, you will say this is unrealistic and will never happen. Go ahead. I'm used to it.
Instead of complaining, it would be a better use of your time to learn more about phonology. Why post anything if you don't want to learn?

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-17, 21:03

mōdgethanc wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Aspirated /kʰ/ (kh) became more and more like actual /kh/, which equalized to /kx/.
See, this is a plausible change, but why would it affect only one plosive and not all of them? (See the High German consonant shift: /p, t, k/ > /pf, ts, x/.)
It does, but I was just giving one example.
mōdgethanc wrote:
Sch (/ɧ/) became /ʃ/, then /ɕ/, then /ç/.
Not impossible, but it would be far more likely to go the opposite way. Also, you need to explain where /ɧ/ came from.
/sk/>/ʃk/
mōdgethanc wrote:
But of course, knowing my track record with these things, you will say this is unrealistic and will never happen. Go ahead. I'm used to it.
Instead of complaining, it would be a better use of your time to learn more about phonology. Why post anything if you don't want to learn?
Point.
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

Thon
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Thon » 2014-05-18, 7:04

A phonology for a triconsonantal language:

a e o ə i u aː eː oː əː iː uː ae ao əi əu eo oe iu ui

p b t d ts dz tʃ dʒ k g kʷ gʷ ʔ
f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ xʷ w h
m n ŋ ŋʷ l r j

The phonemic inventory is really straightforward -- but the vowel alternations can get complex, owing to historical pharyngealization (hence the strange order of the vowels). An example:

z-mˤ-r 'to write'
zimarəː 'writing',
zəmrud 'to write'
zəmori, zəmoris, zəmor, zəmorəni, zəmorənis, zəmorən (present tense conjugation)
but ʔ-t-lˤ 'to study':
ʔətlod 'to study'
ʔətule, ʔətules, ʔətul, ʔətulani, ʔətulanis, ʔətulan (present tense conjugation)

Koko
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-18, 21:43

Consonants: (i can't be bothered to make a table; I don't know how anyways.)

nasal: n m
stops: p,b t,d k
affricates: ͡pf ͡ps ͡ts
fricatives: f,v
trill: r
aproximants: w j

respectively represented:
n m p b t d k pf ps z f v r v j

vowels:

high: u,u:
high-mid: e,e: o,o:
low-mid: ɛ ɔ
low: a,a: ɑ

represented:
u ū
e ē o ō
ê ô
a ā â

the letters à è ò ù imply final stress. These are never used on diphthongs and before consonants. vowels are almost always long before /r/ and therefore this is rarely represented.

diphthongs:
a(:)j a(:)e a(:)u ɑ(:)j ɑ(:)u
e(:)j e(:)u ɛ(:)j ɛ(:)u
o(:)j o(:)e ɔ(:)j

before /e, u, ɛ/, /v/ is realised as [v]. before /a, o, ɑ, ɔ/, /v/ is realised as [w].
Last edited by Koko on 2014-05-19, 7:47, edited 1 time in total.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-19, 6:38

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:It does, but I was just giving one example.
Now we're talking.
/sk/>/ʃk/
And then /ʃx/ or something? Did /s/ > /ʃ/ before all consonants, like Portuguese?
Koko wrote:Consonants: (i can't be bothered to make a table; I don't know how anyways.)
It's pretty much impossible to have /j/ but no /i/. Also, /ps/ is a pretty weird phoneme, but Greek allows that cluster in the syllable onset, so whatever.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby meidei » 2014-05-19, 6:44

French and German allow it as well, isn't it? (Well, in words of Greek origin, but it's still permissible)
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-19, 7:18

Is there a reason to think of /ps/ in French or German as an affricate rather than a consonant cluster?

Koko wrote:before /e, u, ɛ/, /v/ is realised as [v]. before /a, o, ɑ, ɔ/, /v/ is realised as [w].
A better way to say this might be that /v/ merges with /w/ before low and low-back vowels.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-19, 7:43

mōdgethanc wrote:
Koko wrote:Consonants: (i can't be bothered to make a table; I don't know how anyways.)
It's pretty much impossible to have /j/ but no /i/. Also, /ps/ is a pretty weird phoneme, but Greek allows that cluster in the syllable onset, so whatever.

Yes, I know. That's why etymology is good to know! ^_^

/i/ was dropped to /ɪ/, and in turn this was dropped to /e/. /j/ remained, but only because this is a sound much closer to an aproximant /e/, which I have no idea how to represent nor make. (I feel like it'd sound similar to /je/, but with a very soft /e/.)

As for the affricate /ps/, this is an evolved form of /pfʃ/. The /f/ merged with the /p/ while the esh was alveolised to /s/. And yes, /pfʃ/ is considered one consonant in the proto language; they tended to slur their consonants together: many weird clusters formed, but were later abolished (of course, not consciously.)
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby meidei » 2014-05-19, 7:49

Dormouse559 wrote:Is there a reason to think of /ps/ in French or German as an affricate rather than a consonant cluster

Never said that. After all, /ps/ is analysed as a cluster in Greek too.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-19, 8:16

I'm just trying to keep us on track here. It's well established that languages allow /ps/ initially (French even allows /gz/). But the question is whether /ps/ as an affricate is naturalistic. Heterorganic affricates exist apparently, so, on the one hand, /p͡s/ isn't beyond imagination. On the other hand, slurred speech doesn't strike me as a convincing origin. How about pj > pt͡ʃ > p͡ʃ > p͡s? The first step is attested in Romansch and French. The second step could be part of a wider cluster simplification. Then, as you've observed, Koko, postalveolars can be fronted.
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