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The Random Phonology Thread - Page 16 - UniLang

The Random Phonology Thread

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-19, 15:41

Koko wrote:/i/ was dropped to /ɪ/, and in turn this was dropped to /e/.

Not very naturalistic. There's a very strong tendency for languages to keep the "corners" of the vowel triangle occupied, since this maximises the perceptual distance between phonemes. If /i/ dropped to /e/, I would expect some other phoneme to move into the space vacated by /i/. (Consider English: When /iː/ diphthongised to /əi/, /eː/ was raised to take its place, thus triggering the Great Vowel Shift.)

Koko wrote:/j/ remained, but only because this is a sound much closer to an aproximant /e/, which I have no idea how to represent nor make.

You can't have an approximant at that vowel position. The closest you can get is the semivowel [e̯].

Koko wrote:As for the affricate /ps/, this is an evolved form of /pfʃ/. The /f/ merged with the /p/ while the esh was alveolised to /s/. And yes, /pfʃ/ is considered one consonant in the proto language; they tended to slur their consonants together: many weird clusters formed, but were later abolished (of course, not consciously.)

"Considered one consonant" by whom, for what purposes? Linguists have their own criteria for these situations, and without knowing at least something about the phonotactics of your language, I can't begin to say whether they are close to being satisfied.

[Insert rant about how syllable structure/phonotactics is a basic part of any phonological description, and without it what you have is really just a phoneme inventory.]
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-19, 16:49

Did I say the language was spoken by humans?

I am aware that the closest thing to an approximant /e/ is what you give. /pfʃ/ used to have one place of articulation, that to a human, it sounds like a cluster. But as the speakers began to have children, some humanly impossible sounds became clusters. Most of it's alienness is conserved because they found out it was their contact with humans which caused them to loose their sounds.

As for syllable structure(sorry to have forgotten this):
(C)V(r)(N)(C) [r= /r/, the only liquid]
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-19, 16:54

Koko wrote:Did I say the language was spoken by humans?

If it's not, you really should state that up front--along with details of the language organs of the beings who speak it.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-19, 17:22

I'm new to alien languages. So, forgive me :lol:

There is no way for the speakers to produce /pfʃ/ anymore. So that suggests that they have the same human language organs, perhaps I'll make them have weird hesitation noises and an equivalent to [ʌʀ] (the sound I make when I'm disgusted, exhausted, bored, etc…) with inhuman places of articulation.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-19, 17:40

Koko wrote:There is no way for the speakers to produce /pfʃ/ anymore. So that suggests that they have the same human language organs, perhaps I'll make them have weird hesitation noises and an equivalent to [ʌʀ] (the sound I make when I'm disgusted, exhausted, bored, etc…) with inhuman places of articulation.

I still don't grasp the background from your piecemeal description. Are you saying that (a) the language is of alien origin but (b) the aliens interbred with humans so that (c) now it is spoken by beings with essentially human brains and organs?

If that is true, then I think my observations are still valid; vowels spread to fill the vowel space and [e] isn't produced close enough to the edges of that space to be considered an "approximant". If it's not true, then you have some more 'splaining to do.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-19, 18:21

Correction:
(c) now is spoken by beings with essentially human mouths, but still with indescribable features and alien throats in which the sounds come out less human.

They have always looked similar to humans, but there exist differences between the organs of humans and of the speakers.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-19, 18:27

Why are these features indescribable?
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-19, 18:30

Indescribable for me. I don't know linguistics enough to give a proper description, and I'd rather not sound any more dumb than I am.
^how do you describe something that you've never heard, nor can make?
Last edited by Koko on 2014-05-19, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-19, 18:30

Dormouse559 wrote:French even allows /gz/
In what words?
The first step is attested in [...] French.
^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-19, 18:35

mōdgethanc wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:French even allows /gz/
In what words?
Xavier, xylophone, other Greek loans beginning with <x>

mōdgethanc wrote:
The first step is attested in [...] French.
^
sache (< savoir)
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-19, 21:22

Koko wrote:Indescribable for me. I don't know linguistics enough to give a proper description, and I'd rather not sound any more dumb than I am.
^how do you describe something that you've never heard, nor can make?
You're going about this conlang a bit backwards then. How do you know what these aliens can or can't pronounce if you can't even conceive of their vocal organs? :| I would advise learning how to describe alien anatomy before making a language based on it.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-19, 23:51

I've decided how it sounds, but not how it would be made.

All I "know," is that the aliens' /j/ is much like [e̯] but as an approximant. How would this be produced?
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-20, 12:47

Koko wrote:All I "know," is that the aliens' /j/ is much like [e̯] but as an approximant. How would this be produced?

With a low first formant, a higher second formant (although not so high as for [i]), and no articulatory frictions.

(The point is, there is more than one means of producing the same auditory effect.)
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Thon » 2014-05-20, 22:01

All I "know," is that the aliens' /j/ is much like [e̯] but as an approximant. How would this be produced?


Like the e in, for example, Romanian beată 'drunk', I guess.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-05-20, 22:30

I don't know Romanian phonology :|

But I think I read that the "e-" diphthongs are usually realised as [j-]? Would this keep a hint of /e/?
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-06-28, 9:38

Is a language without any rhotic nor lateral probable? I know that Bhéki has done well without any so far. It is actually a hypothetical language where it coexists with our languages, hence why I ask if no /r/ or /l/ is likely. It is derived from a similar language, which does have /r/ but I changed these into /v/ and then just stopped with the other all together. (I've recently gotten confused with this last construction. Is it correct in this context to not write altogether?)
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby somehomo » 2014-07-18, 21:12

This is a phonology I've come up with for what will be a highly agglutinative language. I'd love feedback and some answers to a few questions. Thanks in advance!

Image
I'm not sure that I'm too satisfied with this. I've been debating between /ŋ/ and /ɴ/ or both, and for now I've arbitrarily decided on /ɴ/. I've also been debating adding in /f/ and /v/. /c ɟ ç/ are allophones of /k g x/ + /j/ or /k g x/ before a front vowel. If I decide to include /ŋ/, it will have similar allophonic rules. If it's natural to have /ɢ/ and no /g/, I'd like to do that because, to my ear at least, they're less distinguishable than /k/ and /q/.

The vowel system, for which there is no chart, is /i [ɪ] ɯ u [ʊ] e [ɛ] ɤ o [ɔ] ɑ [ə]/. I'm not sure how to go about stress because this is a highly agglutinative (borderline polysynthetic) language and naturally words are quite long, and stress is confusing for me even after studying it. The unstressed allophones of vowels, however, are in brackets after their stressed variants. I'm unsure of unstressed variants of /ɯ ɤ/ or if they should have unstressed allophones at all. Can anyone explain to my about how stress works in highly agglutinative languages? If anything here is unnatural or weird, feel free to critique and make suggestions.

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YobbinOfGastrosVole
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Joined: 2014-08-06, 19:24
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby YobbinOfGastrosVole » 2014-08-06, 20:05

This is my first post on here and is completely unrelated to anything anyone else has said, but as this post seemed the most reasonable one to put it on, I thought I'd put it on here:

I had the idea recently of a language with NO phonemic vowels. Oh, there'd be vowels, but which vowels a person uses is determined by their social standing. So a man might use /u/, a woman /i/, children might be taught to use /e/, religious workers could use /o/, the Monarchy could use /a/... it's just a thought!

What does anyone else think?
Ich gewissen nicht vor jetzt, das diese hier war! Ich in alles Zeit gedenkt das Omniglot war der anlich Sprachmachendewebiste.
Þys ys mæig fýstmal (Spragen saas ij hebst inmijn gemachdt):  (en)  (art)
Und diese sind Sprachen das ich ein gutlich verstehe:  (de)  (fr)
Sproge jeg lærer:  (da)  (cy)  (ru)
Leids þa'a ken a munt:  (sco)  (ir)  (pa)

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linguoboy
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Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-06, 21:01

YobbinOfGastrosVole wrote:This is my first post on here and is completely unrelated to anything anyone else has said, but as this post seemed the most reasonable one to put it on, I thought I'd put it on here:

I had the idea recently of a language with NO phonemic vowels. Oh, there'd be vowels, but which vowels a person uses is determined by their social standing. So a man might use /u/, a woman /i/, children might be taught to use /e/, religious workers could use /o/, the Monarchy could use /a/... it's just a thought!

What does anyone else think?

That's not a language with "no phonemic vowels". That's a language with sociolectal phonemic alternations.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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YobbinOfGastrosVole
Posts: 8
Joined: 2014-08-06, 19:24
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby YobbinOfGastrosVole » 2014-08-07, 10:45

Right, thank you. Ignoring the incorrect terminology, what do you think of the idea then?
Ich gewissen nicht vor jetzt, das diese hier war! Ich in alles Zeit gedenkt das Omniglot war der anlich Sprachmachendewebiste.
Þys ys mæig fýstmal (Spragen saas ij hebst inmijn gemachdt):  (en)  (art)
Und diese sind Sprachen das ich ein gutlich verstehe:  (de)  (fr)
Sproge jeg lærer:  (da)  (cy)  (ru)
Leids þa'a ken a munt:  (sco)  (ir)  (pa)


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