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The Random Phonology Thread - Page 17 - UniLang

The Random Phonology Thread

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linguoboy
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-07, 14:56

YobbinOfGastrosVole wrote:Right, thank you. Ignoring the incorrect terminology, what do you think of the idea then?

Suzette Haden Elgin has a very interesting take on this in her 1975 short story "Modulation in All Things". Not only the vowels shift according to social status, but the consonants as well.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby YobbinOfGastrosVole » 2014-08-07, 20:32

That sounds interesting, I'll look it up when I get the chance. Thanks!
Ich gewissen nicht vor jetzt, das diese hier war! Ich in alles Zeit gedenkt das Omniglot war der anlich Sprachmachendewebiste.
Þys ys mæig fýstmal (Spragen saas ij hebst inmijn gemachdt):  (en)  (art)
Und diese sind Sprachen das ich ein gutlich verstehe:  (de)  (fr)
Sproge jeg lærer:  (da)  (cy)  (ru)
Leids þa'a ken a munt:  (sco)  (ir)  (pa)

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Thon » 2014-08-16, 3:29

Has anyone come up with a phoneme inventory that uses the 26 letters of the Roman alphabet according to IPA pronunciation rules? It would look like this:

Vowels: a e i o u y (a,e,i,o,u as in Greek or Hebrew or Spanish, y = German ü)
Consonants:
p t c k q b d g (q = uvular stop, c = palatal stop)
f v s z x h (x as in Russian)
m n
l r w j

I'm not comfortable with the lone palatal stop for /c/. I think I'll make it a voiced uvular stop (which looks similar in IPA: ɢ).

I've left many phonetic details unresolved (e.g. aspiration of voiceless stops, palatalization, ...) but I guess it depends on the speaker.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-08-16, 20:36

Yes, and it's very boring.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-08-16, 21:07

Is it suddenly a thing to use a letter that in EVERY language it is used in represents an unvoiced consonant (usually /c/, /k/, /ts/, /s/, or /tʃ/) to represent a voiced uvular stop?! Seriously, if you really want that letter, just use a digraph (probably <gh> unless you have /g/ contrasting /γ/) or a diacritic (probably <ǧ> with the same exceptions as <gh>).

Quite obviously, to anyone who could see from the phonemes above, the letter I am referencing is <c>. Could someone explain this to me? 'Cause I cannot make sense of this.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-08-16, 21:22

If you try to reason that Turkish uses <c> for /dʒ/, I've never understood that, but I can respect it because it contrasts with <j> and <ç>; /ʒ/ and /tʃ/, respectively… and <ş> as /ʃ/ (not sure if that's important to note).
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-08-17, 4:04

Koko wrote:Is it suddenly a thing to use a letter that in EVERY language it is used in represents an unvoiced consonant (usually /c/, /k/, /ts/, /s/, or /tʃ/) to represent a voiced uvular stop?! Seriously, if you really want that letter, just use a digraph (probably <gh> unless you have /g/ contrasting /γ/) or a diacritic (probably <ǧ> with the same exceptions as <gh>).
Could you name some examples, please? Because the only language I know of that does this is Persian (with the letter for /q/ in Arabic).
Quite obviously, to anyone who could see from the phonemes above, the letter I am referencing is <c>. Could someone explain this to me? 'Cause I cannot make sense of this.
I don't know what you're referring to besides the one guy above who did so, so I don't see how it's a "thing". It would hardly be the first time that a language used a writing system in innovative ways, however.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-08-17, 8:02

mōdgethanc wrote:Could you name some examples, please? Because the only language I know of that does this is Persian (with the letter for /q/ in Arabic).

The <ǧ>? I didn't say any natlang did this, but it makes more sense than <c>.

I don't know what you're referring to besides the one guy above who did so, so I don't see how it's a "thing". It would hardly be the first time that a language used a writing system in innovative ways, however.

There's that Free Greek conlang by Sosti which does the same thing. I'm sure there are others, too. And I'd hardly call it innovative: it's just a person trying to use all 26 letters of the Latin alphabet who, because they don't like /c/, decides it'll be a "fun" idea to use <c> for /ɢ/. There are two better alternatives that make a whole lot more sense than <c> that I already gave.

Plus, I don't like /g/ but I have it in almost every conlang because I happen to find it useful enough (and sometimes I find /k/ too sharp, but /γ/ too soft), so I suggest either don't try to use 26 letters the same as in IPA or just embrace the stupid phoneme! At least make a better reason why you chose <c> for /ɢ/ than "I don't /c/ and it looks like /ɢ/, anyways." Perhaps it used to be an unvoiced-velar-ejective, but it evolved into a /ɠ/ which in the modern language is now /ɢ/?
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Ahzoh » 2014-08-17, 8:39

Who doesn't like /c/?
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-08-17, 9:16

Well, technically Thon's just uncomfortable with it. But, whatev, if you're uncomfortable with a phoneme, it's still a crappy reason to use its representation for an unsensible and stupid phoneme. And since he isn't picking it as a transliteration, it's even worse!
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Thon » 2014-08-17, 19:36

The problem is not /c/ -- rather, it is the overall asymmetry of the phonology (all the languages I've seen that have /c/ either don't have a voicing distinction in stops or have /ɟ/).

I decided to keep the uvular rather than the palatal for graphical reasons: the letter 'q' looks less like /ɟ/ than 'c' looks like /ɢ/.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-08-17, 20:03

I still find it a pretty lame reason. At least go along with the history of it that I laid out (ejective-implosive-uvular), then you have a tiny bit of conetymology already :D ! It's a win-win.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Irkan » 2014-08-19, 14:07

In my opinion, I think that using〈c〉 for /ɢ/ makes more sense than using either a digraph or a diacritic, as long as we take into account the rest of the orthography of the language. Having a digraph or a diacritic represent a lone phoneme when the rest of the orthography is a letter-to-phoneme system is what seems unnatural to me. After all, having an unused letter take place of a sound doesn't look that bad to me. Look at Spanish 〈y〉, which stopped being used as a longlost phoneme /y/ in order to represent /j/, or Catalan, which adopted 〈x〉 as its letter for /ʃ/ instead of making up a digraph.

That aside, I gotta say about that phonology phonetic inventory that it looks very dead. I would like to see some cases of allophony, as well as its phonotactic rules. Having just a list of sounds in a row doesn't really make a phonology, in my opinion.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-19, 14:43

Thon wrote:The problem is not /c/ -- rather, it is the overall asymmetry of the phonology (all the languages I've seen that have /c/ either don't have a voicing distinction in stops or have /ɟ/).

Vietnamese has /c/ but not /ɟ/ even though other stops show a voicing distinction. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language#Consonants. It's really not that unusual of a gap to have.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Koko » 2014-08-19, 18:51

Irkan wrote:Look at Spanish 〈y〉, which stopped being used as a longlost phoneme /y/ in order to represent /j/, or Catalan, which adopted 〈x〉 as its letter for /ʃ/ instead of making up a digraph.

I'm okay with weird orthography in natlangs because there's usually a good reason: for example, etymology (well, "history of ortho": isn't etymology history of a word?)

I like patterns, too, so (in my first post in reply to him) I suggested a digraph (<gh>). And, as linguo mentioned, he could also have <c> as /c/ anyways. (doesn't Chinese do this, too?)
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-19, 19:03

Koko wrote:And, as linguo mentioned, he could also have <c> as /c/ anyways. (doesn't Chinese do this, too?)

Chinese doesn't have /c/. It does have [t͡ɕ] (and [t͡ɕʰ]), but I don't know of any romanisation scheme which renders either of these with <c> (although some use <ch>). In Pinyin, <c> represents [t͡sʰ].
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-08-19, 19:11

Irkan wrote:Look at Spanish 〈y〉, which stopped being used as a longlost phoneme /y/ in order to represent /j/
Spanish has never had /y/ to my knowledge. And it represents /j/ with <i>. <y> represents /ʝ/ in the modern language.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-19, 19:18

Dormouse559 wrote:
Irkan wrote:Look at Spanish 〈y〉, which stopped being used as a longlost phoneme /y/ in order to represent /j/
Spanish has never had /y/ to my knowledge. And it represents /j/ with <i>. <y> represents /ʝ/ in the modern language.

I would say it represents [j] with <i>. Spanish does contrast [j] and [ʝ], but the former is considered a non-syllabic allophone of /i/. At least, in all the phonological analyses I've ever seen.
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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-08-19, 19:24

True, I questioned the slashes myself while writing that.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

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Re: The Random Phonology Thread

Postby Irkan » 2014-08-19, 19:50

Dormouse559 wrote:
Irkan wrote:Look at Spanish 〈y〉, which stopped being used as a longlost phoneme /y/ in order to represent /j/
Spanish has never had /y/ to my knowledge. And it represents /j/ with <i>. <y> represents /ʝ/ in the modern language.
Oh, yes. I'm sorry if that led to misinterpretation. What I meant is that /y/ was no longer a phoneme represented by the orthography (I think it was already lost in Vulgar Latin, correct me if I'm wrong). So the letter stood there without a real purpose, thus being able to take care of the phoneme /j/.

By the way, I am a native Spanish speaker and I happen to have read a couple of articles about its phonology (mainly Wikipedia, not gonna lie). Anyway, <y> representing the phoneme [ʝ] is only a regional feature. I wouldn't say this happens in Moder Spanish, because in many regions, <y> may represent [ʒ], [ɟ͡ʝ], [ʃ] or the old [j]. The sound the letter represents may also vary depending on the environment, like after a nasal. So, in conlucion, I would say (and that's my inexpert opinion) that <y> represents /j/ and [ʝ] but not /ʝ/.


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