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General Conlang Discussion - Page 24 - UniLang

General Conlang Discussion

This forum is for constructed languages, both those invented by UniLang members and those already existing.

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Koko
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Koko » 2014-12-16, 5:58

razlem wrote:To be honest, I've never understood the desire to regulate poetry in such a way. For me, poetry is about being unconventional, forming a piece of unique art with language.

Since, it's poetry though, none of the rules laid out have to be followed.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-12-16, 6:03

razlem wrote:To be honest, I've never understood the desire to regulate poetry in such a way. For me, poetry is about being unconventional, forming a piece of unique art with language.
The difference for me is that I'm not trying to write poetry as myself but rather as members of my conculture (some historical). Europe has a long history of highly structured art forms, and Silvish is supposed to have grown up in the thick of that. On a more subjective note, there is nothing about rigid structure that must stifle creativity; if anything, it can force one to become even more creative in order to develop something unique.
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Koko » 2014-12-16, 6:09

Oh no, we're going to get off topic :para:

I agree with Mouse. Limitations are less hindrances as they are motivators for me. I find they often make me do better and stops me from procrastinating which often leads to bad results.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Irkan » 2014-12-16, 7:23

Dormouse559 wrote:The difference for me is that I'm not trying to write poetry as myself but rather as members of my conculture (some historical). Europe has a long history of highly structured art forms, and Silvish is supposed to have grown up in the thick of that. On a more subjective note, there is nothing about rigid structure that must stifle creativity; if anything, it can force one to become even more creative in order to develop something unique.

That's exactly what I was going for. When I asked this, I had in the back of my mind texts like the Odissey because I wanted to write something similar in my conlang, and I suddenly felt curious for other concultures poetry.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Koko » 2014-12-17, 3:55

#that moment when you create a construction different from languages you know

To say "I (don't) like how…" you put the possessor in the accusative and immediately after the thing that's been done in dative: Nue desseu sola/josa solejan.— I like/don't like how you've changed. (I (don't) like you for the change).
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Irkan » 2014-12-26, 22:16

I had thought of starting a thread for this but meh, it's not that big of a deal. So, the thing is many conlangers seem to have some sort of problems with vocabulary (can I mix two natlangs? can I use word generators? am I the only one who creates words and then gives them meaning? and so on). The thing is, my big BIG problem is not vocabulary but morphology. I have all the traits in mind, but I can't decide on the morphemes I want to use. At all. Because morphemes are repeated very frequently (tense morphemes, for example), I always want them to sound nicely and then I just can't decide. Does this happen to anyone else, to have a superlong list of characteristics and gaps next to them to fill in?

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Mentilliath » 2014-12-27, 8:19

^I agree. Vocabulary-creating is fun and easy for me. Morphology is more of a problem. I want to make sure morphemes are not too similar to each other (i.e. I don't want a past-tense morpheme to be identical to a feminine instrumental morpheme, etc.), I want them to sound nice in combination with roots (I've often changed certain morphemes when I found they didn't sound that good in combination with many roots), and creating different morphemes for different noun and verb classes can be tedious.
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby hashi » 2014-12-29, 21:32

Mentilliath wrote:^I agree. Vocabulary-creating is fun and easy for me. Morphology is more of a problem. I want to make sure morphemes are not too similar to each other (i.e. I don't want a past-tense morpheme to be identical to a feminine instrumental morpheme, etc.),
Whyyyyyyyyyyy.

People get so hung up on trying to make sure there are absolutely no overlaps, and everything is perfectly equal and symmetrical. Remember that natural languages often reuse a lot of morphemes (think of English -s: plural, genitive, and present simple). Having overlaps and creating ambiguity makes your conlang a lot more naturalistic and less robotic imho.

Because morphemes are repeated very frequently (tense morphemes, for example), I always want them to sound nicely and then I just can't decide.
Having them sound nice is of course important. Another thing to keep in mind when you're starting a new conlang is that it is a _new language_ that your brain has never heard or seen before - as a result, all morphemes - particularly those repeated - will sound stupid at first. Once you settle on a set of morphemes to use, and use them for a while (don't keep changing them just cause you hate them, give them a chance!) , you'll get more used to it and the more fitting it'll seem.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-12-29, 21:49

hashi wrote:Remember that natural languages often reuse a lot of morphemes (think of English -s: plural, genitive, and present simple).
Don't forget present perfect. :)
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby hashi » 2014-12-29, 21:59

Dormouse559 wrote:
hashi wrote:Remember that natural languages often reuse a lot of morphemes (think of English -s: plural, genitive, and present simple).
Don't forget present perfect. :)
Indeed.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Irkan » 2014-12-29, 22:02

hashi wrote:Whyyyyyyyyyyy.

People get so hung up on trying to make sure there are absolutely no overlaps, and everything is perfectly equal and symmetrical. Remember that natural languages often reuse a lot of morphemes (think of English -s: plural, genitive, and present simple). Having overlaps and creating ambiguity makes your conlang a lot more naturalistic and less robotic imho.

That makes it even worse! I usually build my conlangs so that they are as naturalistic as possible, so I have overlaps in morphology (for example, future and allative). But than I find it even harder for me to decide: what morpheme should I repeat? how many categories should overlap? and so on...
Of course I'm aware that you don't get used to the morphology right off the bait, it has sometimes happened to me that I started off with morphemes I liked and morphemes I didn't like and ended up loving the latter and abhoring the former.

And there's yet another thing. When I create the morphology and a morpheme sounds similar to a morpheme in a language I know... I just can't. For example, in my newest conlang, I had thought for the antipassive morpheme to be -kay, but then I realized it was too close Dyirbal's antipassive -ŋay and just had to change it to -tay (which, by the way, I like better). We all have our things, I guess.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby hashi » 2014-12-29, 22:11

You shouldn't have to decide which to repeat. Assign morphemes you feel fit each use, but take no notice of whether you've already used it or not. (Well, I suppose to some extent you have to in case there are total polar opposites with the same morpheme - which I struck once. But then also, this made an interesting situation in the language also).

And there's yet another thing. When I created the morphology and a morpheme sounds similar to a morpheme in a language I know... I just can't. For example, in my newest conlang, I had thought for the antipassive morpheme to be -kay, but then I realized it was too close Dyirbal's antipassive -ŋay and just had to change it to -tay. We all have our things, I guess.
Why?

There are plenty of natural languages that have similar/coincidental overlaps without necessarily being related to each other.

Something you could also think about, is why a morpheme is what it is. Deriving morphemes from other analytical morphemes (such as prepositions or just other nouns etc) could also be a way to help you decide the morphemes. That way you avoid having to think about it to much and falling into the traps.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Irkan » 2014-12-29, 22:23

hashi wrote:Something you could also think about, is why a morpheme is what it is. Deriving morphemes from other analytical morphemes (such as prepositions or just other nouns etc) could also be a way to help you decide the morphemes. That way you avoid having to think about it to much and falling into the traps.

That's pretty much what I do with my morphology when I find myself in a situation of "sh*t, nothing I think of fits here". The one I am the most proud of is a verbalizer that came from the word "fist" through an instrumental stagee: knife > to hold a knife in one's punch > to knife.

And I'm aware there are overlaps in unrelated languages (I love how both Japanese and Catalan use the verb to see (which by the way sounds very similar: miru - mirar) as the verb to try, though that's not really morphology). So I just end up "banning" morphemes from the latest language I heard of so that I don't feel so guilty.

hashi wrote:You shouldn't have to decide which to repeat. Assign morphemes you feel fit each use, but take no notice of whether you've already used it or not. (Well, I suppose to some extent you have to in case there are total polar opposites with the same morpheme - which I struck once. But then also, this made an interesting situation in the language also).
I have honestly never tried to do it so carelessly... :roll: I'll give it a try next time!

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby hashi » 2014-12-29, 22:33

Irkan wrote:That's pretty much what I do with my morphology when I find myself in a situation of "sh*t, nothing I think of fits here". The one I am the most proud of is a verbalizer that came from the word "fist" through an instrumental stagee: knife > to hold a knife in one's punch > to knife.
There you go ;) At least this way, you can't go, "urgh, I hate this morpheme, why did I even use it".

And I'm aware there are overlaps in unrelated languages (I love how both Japanese and Catalan use the verb to see (which by the way sounds very similar: miru - mirar) as the verb to try, though that's not really morphology). So I just end up "banning" morphemes from the latest language I heard of so that I don't feel so guilty.
Good example though. Yes, while not exactly morphemes, it does show a similar construct in two otherwise unrelated languages.

hashi wrote:I have honestly never tried to do it so carelessly... :roll: I'll give it a try next time!
I don't really see it as careless per se. I mean, at no point in the development of natural languages like English for example, did someone say "we already have -s for genitive, we can't use that for plurals also!". Language is just going to do it's own thing anyway.

To be quite honest, in my oldest conlang, it's now at the point where things mean totally different things to when I "constructed" it as overtime I just start using things differently. Partly as a result of being too lazy to look up what the actual rules are. Idk if anyone else finds that, but I certainly do.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Mentilliath » 2014-12-30, 2:49

hashi wrote:
Mentilliath wrote:^I agree. Vocabulary-creating is fun and easy for me. Morphology is more of a problem. I want to make sure morphemes are not too similar to each other (i.e. I don't want a past-tense morpheme to be identical to a feminine instrumental morpheme, etc.),
Whyyyyyyyyyyy.

People get so hung up on trying to make sure there are absolutely no overlaps, and everything is perfectly equal and symmetrical. Remember that natural languages often reuse a lot of morphemes (think of English -s: plural, genitive, and present simple). Having overlaps and creating ambiguity makes your conlang a lot more naturalistic and less robotic imho.


Well, my language certainly is not without natural features: I have numerous irregular verbs, unusual noun paradigms, etc. But when it comes to morphemes I try to avoid a lot of direct overlap, e.g. stem+ -i is pretty much exclusively a neuter nominative marker. Now, -i occurs in nominative plurals, but always after a thematic vowel and it occurs in present tense forms, but always after the personal ending. So in that case, bare stem + -i really is only a neuter nominative marker, but the morpheme -i by itself has other uses when it follows different morphemes.

So that is overlap, but not quite as drastic as that of the English -s.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the other two).

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Koko » 2014-12-31, 6:12

I think I work better when I stay up later than I should. Last night, I made an entire page of stuff on a new conlang and it's totally perfect. Then I decided to make inflections today with a ready mind; they aren't my best. Luckily, when I started Ferodian last night, I'd also made its conscript which is the best I've made yet :mrgreen: ! I've got it memorized unlike all my others. It only took me a couple minutes after finishing it to realize how simple it really is.

It's got a completely unique letter transliterated as <g> that represents /ŋ, g, j, ʝ/ or /ɣ/ depending the context. There are many exceptions as to what it actually represents so one learning Ferodian essentially has to remember the pronunciation of every word it appears in. The stress is fitting to my taste and has to be learnt to a certain extent too.

The alphabet is as follows (romanization then IPA):

a b d e f g i j k l m n o p q r s t u v x z ł ń
/a~ʌ b~v d~ð e f G i~j ʒ k l m n o~ɔ p kʰ r s~d t u v x~ʃ (d)z ʎ ɲ/

Its size is pry a factor in the quick memorization of the native script :whistle:

Here's a sample sentence:

Kar jom bixolnar. /ˈkar ʒom biˈxolnʌr/ [1s.NOM be-1s.PRES son-ESS] — I'm a boy/son.

So far, that's the extent of my functional vocabulary.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Iparxi_Zoi » 2014-12-31, 11:30

Are Indo-European conlangs really seen as uncreative?

I've been looking through the various threads and this seems to be a shared POV. Does this mean that there is a complete disregard for Indo-European conlangs?

Indo-European conlangs, especially ones derived from Proto-Indo-European, involve a lot of work. I've had to revise my conlang about 3 times to account for pharyngeal changes, ablaut, and the intimidating system of PIE verbs. I think it would be unfair to judge it by saying "Oh, it's an IE conlang, *yawn*, next...).

To be honest, I've had more fun creating my Indo-European conlang that I have my a priori conlang. My IE conlang, Zacian, sounds so complex and eloquent while my Proto-Meganesian, my a priori conlang, sounds like a bunch of primitive nonsense.
Native/Mis lenguas maternas: español mexicano (Mexican Spanish) (es-MX) español (Spanish) (es) American English (en-US) English (en)
Advanced (I hope)/Espero que no se me olvide: français (French) (fr)
In love with/Me encantan: ελληνικά (Greek) (el) português (Portuguese) (pt)
Also intested in/También me interesarían: العربية (Arabic) (ar) italiano (Italian) (it) Türkçe (Turkish) (tr)

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Irkan » 2014-12-31, 12:25

As I see it, it is not that IE languages are seen as uncreative, all the opposite, PIE-based conlangs require a lot of work. However, many beginner conlangers with few knowledge of natlangs have a tendency towards their mother tongue without even noticing. That is uncreative, when you achieve europeanness without even noticing because you simply don't understand your language and you know about no other languages.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Mentilliath » 2014-12-31, 19:24

^I agree with both of y'all.

My conlang is IE-based only in the grammar and grammatical forms. The vocabulary is original. It made for a much better sounding language for me, to input my a priori vocabulary into a pre-existing grammatical system (and of course I made plenty of changes to that system). But maybe that's because in some way I see making a language entirely a priori (which isn't done much in the world of conlanging) as a daunting task. Natural languages aren't created by one person; using another system as a basis almost makes it seem more natural.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the other two).

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Koko » 2014-12-31, 22:02

My grammars are usually based off of Italian, Japanese, or Germanic languages. I add my own ideas too, of course. I love Bulgarian's syntax, so I might mix that with Italian's for Ferodian. Czech'll probably have some influence on the grammar.

Basing grammar on natural languages seems so much more entertaining. It also sets guidelines as to what would be natural or not which is very useful for us naturalistic conlangers.
 (it) Correggimi per favore (se lo sbaglio è grave, sennò non correggermi perché potrei correggermelo da solo)  (bg) Българският не е руски  (cs) Jsem krásný jazyk. :D ^^


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