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Which would you think is easier? - UniLang

Which would you think is easier?

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Which would you think is easier?

Postby ltrout » 2015-03-19, 3:06

I have decided to start creating what I want to be one of the easiest most versatile auxiliary languages with few words but still able to explain very difficult to explain topics. I feel like auxiliary languages are harder to make than a normal priori conlang just because you have to determine what sounds are the used in most languages and then you have to be able to combine languages or make the words extremely easy to pronounce and etc. But what do you think is easier? Creating a normal priori or posteriori conlang, or creating an auxiliary language?
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-19, 3:44

Creating a language is never easy if you do it properly.
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby ltrout » 2015-03-19, 4:04

linguoboy wrote:Creating a language is never easy if you do it properly.

I know. That's the reason I used easier not easy. :wink:
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby hashi » 2015-03-19, 4:06

linguoboy wrote:Creating a language is never easy if you do it properly.
This.

It's not as black and white as that ltrout. Each type of conlang has 'difficult' points, and 'easy' points, and they can easily be varied by how much effort you put into it. I personally find a priori/IALs harder as it requires a lot more reading into the 'parent' languages. However a posteriori isn't without its challenges either.

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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby ltrout » 2015-03-19, 4:13

hashi wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Creating a language is never easy if you do it properly.
This.

It's not as black and white as that ltrout. Each type of conlang has 'difficult' points, and 'easy' points, and they can easily be varied by how much effort you put into it. I personally find a priori/IALs harder as it requires a lot more reading into the 'parent' languages. However a posteriori isn't without its challenges either.

Yes I do agree that any language is difficult to create. But I usually find with prioris that they are a little easier because it's mostly (usually 100%) made up and not based off other languages. While with IAL, you have to search for the languages you want to base it off and do a lot of reading. Unless you make a parody of Esperanto that is. :silly:
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby hashi » 2015-03-19, 5:37

Just because it is 'made up' doesn't mean it's easy/easier. You still should be able to show where that word came from relative to the language's other lexicon. I can trace most of my lexicon in Nithalos to its roots.

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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby Koko » 2015-03-19, 5:58

hashi wrote:Just because it is 'made up' doesn't mean it's easy/easier. You still should be able to show where that word came from relative to the language's other lexicon. I can trace most of my lexicon in Nithalos to its roots.

Do you mean one should be able to trace a conlang to its own past-version or to how to the word came to be or like processes of affixation and such? For some reason I can't stop taking this as "Even a priori languages must have a posteriori roots" :roll: . It's late and now I don't know if I'll ever stop going down that train of thought.

I haven't developed any of my a posteriori languages as I have my a priori, but they weren't any more difficult or easy than Isyan or even recently Celdovin, which was originally going to be a latin-based language (but then I began to make a parody of Italian, which I didn't like).
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby razlem » 2015-03-19, 7:42

In my experience, a good auxlang is extremely difficult. You can have your euroclone, and that's easy. But really thinking about and understanding how people communicate with each other, knowing what NOT to include, is the hardest part. It tends to be very restrictive structurally, which I think is why a lot of conlangers don't enjoy it as much.

I liked the challenge though. I wound up making something that no other auxlang had done before, and I'm very happy with how Angos turned out. ^_^

I'm on the fence about the idea that a conlang can be considered "good" or "bad" (I think "linguistically informed" and "linguistically uninformed" are better, less absolute terms). And then easiness depends on your experience. Give me a few hours and I'll pump out a proto-language and some descendants.
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby hashi » 2015-03-19, 8:41

Koko wrote:
hashi wrote:Just because it is 'made up' doesn't mean it's easy/easier. You still should be able to show where that word came from relative to the language's other lexicon. I can trace most of my lexicon in Nithalos to its roots.

Do you mean one should be able to trace a conlang to its own past-version or to how to the word came to be or like processes of affixation and such? For some reason I can't stop taking this as "Even a priori languages must have a posteriori roots" :roll: . It's late and now I don't know if I'll ever stop going down that train of thought.
Why can't an a priori have a priori roots? o.O

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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby Koko » 2015-03-19, 8:44

But what does that mean? I mean, where do the roots come from if they're a priori?
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby hashi » 2015-03-19, 8:57

Koko wrote:But what does that mean? I mean, where do the roots come from if they're a priori?
I... don't even know where to begin. Use your imagination and I'm sure you'll work it out.

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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby ltrout » 2015-03-19, 13:53

hashi wrote:
Koko wrote:
hashi wrote:Just because it is 'made up' doesn't mean it's easy/easier. You still should be able to show where that word came from relative to the language's other lexicon. I can trace most of my lexicon in Nithalos to its roots.

Do you mean one should be able to trace a conlang to its own past-version or to how to the word came to be or like processes of affixation and such? For some reason I can't stop taking this as "Even a priori languages must have a posteriori roots" :roll: . It's late and now I don't know if I'll ever stop going down that train of thought.
Why can't an a priori have a priori roots? o.O

My priori has German roots in it. But if you read it, you could quickly determine that it isn't German.
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-03-19, 15:57

Koko wrote:But what does that mean? I mean, where do the roots come from if they're a priori?


I think he just means create your own roots.

For example, with Halvian, its grammatical "endings" are largely derived from PIE, but vocabulary roots are all a priori. So the root "sod-" means "walk", and I made it up out of thin air. It isn't based on any real language. But it is a root you can trace in Halvian vocabulary. It gives the verb sodámi ("I walk"), the noun súdna "sidewalk, walkway", etc.

In my opinion, a "bad conlang" would have a word for "farm" and then have the word for "farmer" be a completely different lexeme. There's nothing wrong with a conlang having a lot of lexemes (especially more than a natlang), but there should be some roots that you create, some way to trace certain related words to a common root. It doesn't mean they have to be based on another language.
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-19, 16:21

Mentilliath wrote:[In my opinion, a "bad conlang" would have a word for "farm" and then have the word for "farmer" be a completely different lexeme.
Actually, I can think of a number of languages where the most common word for "farm" and the most common word for "farmer" are derived from different roots, e.g. MSA mazraʻa vs fallāħ or Latin fundus/latifundium vs agricola.

I hesitate to characterise a language where even most occupational nouns are suppletive as a "bad conlang". After all this sort of thing isn't that unusual. (What lexemes do secretary, dean, superintendent, porter, janitor, etc. relate to, for instance?) I do get what you're driving at: there should be some sort of structure to the lexicon. But there's so much diversity among natlangs in this respect that it's difficult to single out a particular approach as "wrong".
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-03-19, 16:33

Yeah, that was a bad example on my part...I was more picturing in my mind a beginning conlanger creating new words for every English word without thinking of how they can be related to each other. If there is some structure to the lexicon and some thought behind related lexemes, it doesn't matter how they are related.

In Latin of course the word for farmer is related to the word for "field", which makes sense. With words like "janitor" and "secretary" that were essentially borrowed into English, it makes sense that the derivations and roots are not transparent. (But in Latin, I'm sure a Latin speaker would've made the connection between "ianus" and "ianitor").
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-19, 16:49

Mentilliath wrote:I was more picturing in my mind a beginning conlanger creating new words for every English word without thinking of how they can be related to each other.
The first part is, to me, a much bigger problem. Most noob conlangers are familiar enough with productive derivational morphology from their own languages to include some in their conlang. But the notion of how linguicentric lexical categories can be often doesn't seem to occur to them at all. For instance, if the speakers aren't cultivators, should the language even have a word for "farm" at all?
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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-03-19, 16:57

Very true. In order for a conlang to be successful, the culture has to be part of it. In Japanese, there's one word for rice that means "cooked rice" and another that means "rice plant". Obviously, that is culturally relevant and worth distinguishing in Japanese (I'm not talking about ten words for snow or whatever the stereotype is, but the words should be culturally relevant). That's why I thought it was okay to create a separate word for the ubiquitous staple "lemon bread" in Halvian (marnelwa) that is related to the word for lemon, but isn't just a translation of the English phrase "lemon bread", since I see it as more basic than that and more likely to have its own lexeme. That's a subtle example, but you get the idea.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the other two).

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Re: Which would you think is easier?

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-19, 18:12

Mentilliath wrote:That's a subtle example, but you get the idea.
It's a good one, and one that's easily grasped. It gets harder when dealing with more abstract categories like prepositions or action verbs. Some languages have separate lexemes for "go on foot" and "go in a vehicle" and it really has nothing to do with how long they've had conveyances or how central they are to their culture. It's just an arbitrary thing, like whether they have separate lexemes for "go someplace [and stop there]" and "go someplace [and perhaps continue on or come back]".
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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