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Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu - Page 2 - UniLang

Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby qwerty » 2011-02-17, 19:17

Mutusen wrote:V can be at the end of a syllable in the middle of a word, as in hlavný.
Oh, no :( I am sorry. I should not have formulated the rule without having thought about it thoroughly - in "hlavný", V is pronounced V...
(I tried to think of as many different words as possible and derive some common features from them, but clearly the rule is more complicated. I think it would be best to let somebody else say a word on the subject.
Next time I will be more careful when assuring others of things I am not myself sure of... I promise.)

Mutusen wrote:Also, I think most people pronounce ä like e, don't they?
Yes, almost everybody does.

Mutusen wrote:And one small vocabulary question: what's the difference between vajce and vajíčko?
Vajíčko is a diminutive form of vajce.

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mutusen » 2011-02-17, 21:05

I just read the Wikipedia article more thoroughly and I saw this:
When "v" stands at the end of the syllable, it is pronounced as non-syllabic u (bilabial approximant /u̯/), with the exception of the position before "n" or "ň", for example, kov /kou̯/ (metal), kravský /krau̯skiː/ (cow - adjective), but povstať /pofstatʲ/ (uprise) because the v is not at the end of the syllable (po-vstať), hlavný /hlavniː/ because "v" stands before "n" here

Does it look correct to you?
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby qwerty » 2011-02-17, 22:23

Mutusen wrote:I just read the Wikipedia article more thoroughly and I saw this:
When "v" stands at the end of the syllable, it is pronounced as non-syllabic u (bilabial approximant /u̯/), with the exception of the position before "n" or "ň", for example, kov /kou̯/ (metal), kravský /krau̯skiː/ (cow - adjective), but povstať /pofstatʲ/ (uprise) because the v is not at the end of the syllable (po-vstať), hlavný /hlavniː/ because "v" stands before "n" here

Does it look correct to you?
Hmm, when writing my previous post, it seemed to me that there were no words when V before N was pronounced something other than V, but I already misled you once and I did not want to do it again. (Sorry for that again :()
To be honest, I had no idea that such a rule existed at all :) But it seems fairly probable, and if Wikipedia says so, I would believe it.

I just want to add (and I am quite sure of this!) that in words like "povstať" (uprise), "povzbudiť" (encourage), "navždy" (forever), "všetko" (everything), "vták" (bird), etc., when V is not at the end of a syllable, it is subject to assimilation, i.e., is pronounced V before voiced consonants (b, d, ď, dz, dž, g, h, v, z, ž) and F before the unvoiced (c, č, f, ch, k, p, s, š, t, ť). But you said you knew about assimilation already, this was just to make sure it was clear.

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mikey93 » 2011-02-18, 20:12

akh :D in my point of view you shouldnt focus so much on grammar its for nothing. you wont become fluent, you wont be able to use it in speech because its impossible to use all of the grammatical rules we have in practical speech, isnt it? Neither of slovak people are thinking about these grammar rules in speech. However if you think this is the best way to learn a language then ok :)
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mutusen » 2011-02-18, 20:48

I know, I focus too much on grammar, but it's the part I find the most interesting. :D
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby silmeth » 2011-02-19, 17:49

I dislike some things in this article. I don't know Slovak, so I my notes are based on knowledge of Polish and Czech (and just some, little, Slovak), anyway...

Finally there is the rarely applied grammatical principle, under which, for example, there is a difference in writing (but not in the pronunciation) between the basic singular and plural form of masculine adjectives, for example pekný (nice – sg.) vs pekní (nice – pl.), both pronounced [pekniː].


Isn't there little difference in softening of that /n/? I mean [pekniː] for sg. and [pekɲiː] for pl. (difference written using Slovak ortography: "pekný" vs. "pekňý")?

Also, I dislike usage of /tʲ/ and /dʲ/ in phonemic transcription (like in /pofstatʲ/), "ť" is in Slovak read [c] and "ď" as [ɟ], so povstať should be /pofstac/. I don't see the point in not using these signs. Or, to omit confusion, they could just use /ť/ and /ď/ instead of /tʲ/ and /dʲ/. [tʲ] and [dʲ] are sounds one can hear in Russian or Ukrainian.

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby qwerty » 2011-02-20, 16:18

silmeth wrote:Isn't there little difference in softening of that /n/? I mean [pekniː] for sg. and [pekɲiː] for pl. (difference written using Slovak ortography: "pekný" vs. "pekňý")?
No, the article is right, "pekní" is really pronounced the same as "pekný". Other examples: chudý/chudí, čistý/čistí, milý/milí, vážny/vážni, ... - all of the last consonants are pronounced hard.

silmeth wrote:Also, I dislike usage of /tʲ/ and /dʲ/ in phonemic transcription (like in /pofstatʲ/), "ť" is in Slovak read [c] and "ď" as [ɟ], so povstať should be /pofstac/. I don't see the point in not using these signs. Or, to omit confusion, they could just use /ť/ and /ď/ instead of /tʲ/ and /dʲ/. [tʲ] and [dʲ] are sounds one can hear in Russian or Ukrainian.
I only attended one course in phonetics, and I certainly do not claim to be a proper linguist, so I can not say anything on this subject professionally. However, as far as I know (and I would do my best to find some materials to support me), slovak consonants ť and ď should really be transcribed as [tʲ] and [dʲ]. We learned that there was a slight difference in pronounciation between Czech and Slovak "ť" and "ď", so maybe this is the thing that confuses you, as you try to move from Czech to Slovak. I will look into this matter and let you know, ok?

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby silmeth » 2011-02-20, 16:40

Hmm, information that in these endings consonant is always pronounced hard way really surprises me. This is only Slovak, right? In Czech there is difference, right? (it destroys my outlook on life... :P)

The article still says that they are pronounced (as I said) [c] and [ɟ]. Only in phonemic notation they use /tʲ/ and /dʲ/ symbols. Even if there is any difference between Czech and Slovak pronunciation of them, it is to small to be represented by IPA symbols (similarly, there is no way in IPA to distinguish Czech, Slovak and Polish š/sz - for Polish however there are used sometimes, still incorrectly, other symbols...). Anyway, I would be glad to learn more about those Slovak ť and ď, because until now I believed there are the same with Czech ones. Tak ak môhla by si niečo nájsť, bol by som veľmi vďačný ;-).

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mutusen » 2011-02-20, 20:38

qwerty wrote:No, the article is right, "pekní" is really pronounced the same as "pekný". Other examples: chudý/chudí, čistý/čistí, milý/milí, vážny/vážni, ... - all of the last consonants are pronounced hard.

Really? I assumed they were pronounced soft. :(
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby qwerty » 2011-03-16, 12:47

(Just to let you know - I know it's been a long time since I promised you to look into that phonemic transcription matter. I have NOT forgotten about it, but recently I have been (and still am) quite busy so I'm always putting it off until later. I will certainly get back to it when most of the other things in my TODO list are of lower priority than this. However, if you have another questions, feel free to ask ;))

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby UNI-Lukas » 2011-03-17, 20:20

silmeth wrote:Isn't there little difference in softening of that /n/? I mean [pekniː] for sg. and [pekɲiː] for pl. (difference written using Slovak ortography: "pekný" vs. "pekňý")?

Also, I dislike usage of /tʲ/ and /dʲ/ in phonemic transcription (like in /pofstatʲ/), "ť" is in Slovak read [c] and "ď" as [ɟ], so povstať should be /pofstac/. I don't see the point in not using these signs. Or, to omit confusion, they could just use /ť/ and /ď/ instead of /tʲ/ and /dʲ/. [tʲ] and [dʲ] are sounds one can hear in Russian or Ukrainian.


No, If it's just singular vs. plural, they're always pronounced the same, there's absolutely no distinction there. HOWEVER, if you look at:
čistý = singular, it's a "hard T" sound
čistí = as in "clean - plural" = also a "hard T" sound
BUT
(on) čistí = (he) cleans/ (he) is cleaning = that's where you have the "soft T" sound..the "[c]" - sound according to the IPA ..

And you're right about the second part.
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mulder-21 » 2011-03-27, 5:17

UNI-Lukas wrote:čistí = as in "clean - plural" = also a "hard T" sound
BUT
(on) čistí = (he) cleans/ (he) is cleaning = that's where you have the "soft T" sound..the "[c]" - sound according to the IPA ...


Fakt? Ja by som obe vyslovoval mäkko...
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby UNI-Lukas » 2011-04-02, 13:19

Mulder-21 wrote:
UNI-Lukas wrote:čistí = as in "clean - plural" = also a "hard T" sound
BUT
(on) čistí = (he) cleans/ (he) is cleaning = that's where you have the "soft T" sound..the "[c]" - sound according to the IPA ...


Fakt? Ja by som obe vyslovoval mäkko...


hej..
"(on/ona/ono) čistí" = sloveso = mäkko
čistý (sg.)/čistí (pl.) = prídavné meno = tvrdo
:)
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mutusen » 2011-04-04, 21:32

Ahojte.

I've noticed that in related words, vowels sometimes shorten. For example: návšteva, navštevovať; písať, opísať, opisovať. Is this predictable or should these words be learned by heart?

And I have a question about handwriting. The caron on d, l, t looks like an apostrophe; do people write it like that even in handwriting?
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mikey93 » 2011-04-06, 18:40

Ahoj Mutusen,

these words look similar but have different meanings
i thinks it might got something to do with the perfective/imperfective aspect

opísať- perfective
opisovať-imperfective
navštevovať-imperfective
but more likely theres no rules for this

Yes we do use ď,ť,ň,ľ etc. both in block letters and script
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby silmeth » 2011-04-06, 20:23

I think he was asking about the shape of haček above ľ, ď and ť. And, AFAIK, in handwriting it looks like the haček above ň, not like apostrophe. But I can't google any example images.

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mutusen » 2011-04-07, 11:39

Yes, slimeth, that's what I was asking. Thank you.

Áno, slimeth, to som sa pýtal. Ďakujem.
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby Mutusen » 2011-04-27, 13:12

I've noticed that many Slovak verbs with a different prefix have a similar meaning. For instance, what is the difference between užívať and používať? And between bozkať and pobozkať?

Anyway, I'm going to try and practice my Slovak by writing stuff about my life. It would be nice if someone could correct my mistakes.


Teraz sa predstavím po slovensky. Volám sa Matthieu (to je francúzsky ekvivalent slovenského mena Matej) a mám dvadsať rokov. Bývam s mojou rodinou v malom mestom blízko La Rochelle (nad Atlantickým oceánom) od piatich mesiacov (predtým sme bývali blízko Paríža), ale cez týždeň bývam v Paríži, lebo tam študujem informatiku. Mám dva mladšie sestry. Prvá má osemnásť rokov a je študentkou. Najmladšia sestra má tri roky. Otec pracuje v informatike a matka bola tajomníčkou, ale už nepracuje.

Učím sa slovensky lebo v letom budem tráviť tri mesiace v Bratislave (moja škola chce, aby študenti robili zahraničná stáž), a tiež pretože sa rád učím cudzí jazyky a páčia sa mi slovanské jazyky. Páči sa mi slovenčina; tento jazyk je krajší a menej ťažký než poľština.

Moje iné záľuby sú informatika (preto ju študujem), najmä programovanie, a astronómia, hoci už dlho som nepozoroval oblohu ďalekohľadom (ale keď som bol dieťa, čítal som veľa kníh o astronómii).
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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby qwerty » 2011-04-27, 17:53

Mutusen wrote:I've noticed that many Slovak verbs with a different prefix have a similar meaning. For instance, what is the difference between užívať and používať? And between bozkať and pobozkať?
Hmm, this forum taught me that explaining features of one's mother tongue gets really difficult sometimes :) I will leave the first pair of words for someone else to answer, because honestly I am not sure what to say. But as for the latter, I don't think I would ever use bozkať - it sounds too archaic to me.

Mutusen wrote:Teraz sa predstavím po slovensky. Volám sa Matthieu (to je francúzsky ekvivalent slovenského mena Matej) a mám dvadsať rokov. Bývam s mojou rodinou v malom mestom meste blízko La Rochelle (nad Atlantickým oceánom) od piatich mesiacov (predtým sme bývali blízko Paríža), ale cez týždeň bývam v Paríži, lebo tam študujem informatiku. Mám dva dve mladšie sestry. Prvá má osemnásť rokov a je študentkou. Najmladšia sestra má tri roky. Otec pracuje v informatike a matka bola tajomníčkou, ale už nepracuje.

Učím sa slovensky lebo v letom lete budem tráviť tri mesiace v Bratislave (moja škola chce, aby študenti robili zahraničná zahraničnú stáž), a tiež pretože sa rád učím cudzí cudzie jazyky a páčia sa mi slovanské jazyky. Páči sa mi slovenčina; tento jazyk je krajší a menej ťažký než poľština.

Moje iné záľuby sú informatika (preto ju študujem), najmä programovanie, a astronómia, hoci už dlho som nepozoroval oblohu ďalekohľadom (ale keď som bol dieťa, čítal som veľa kníh o astronómii).
Výborné! Som veľmi príjemne prekvapená, ako krásne ti to ide :) Za taký krátky čas si sa naozaj veľa naučil. Len tak ďalej!
(Perfect! I am surprised to see how good you are :) You have learned a lot in so little time. Keep up the good work!)

(A mimochodom, tiež študujem informatiku ;))

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Re: Mutusen sa učí slovenčinu

Postby UNI-Lukas » 2011-04-28, 11:48

If you want to express the meaning of 'use/using' then you generally either say 'použiť' (= to use) or 'používať' (= to use frequently). I've literally never heard anyone use 'užívať' in this context. Užívať (si) means to enjoy/relish/rejoice.

The only way it can be used in the meaning of 'to use' would probably be 'užívateľ' (meaning 'a user') but that's about it really.

And yeah, just like qwerty said, 'bozkať' just sounds wrong. We either say 'pobozkať' (to give sb. a kiss) or 'bozkávať (sa)' (to make out).


One more thing about your translation:
Páči sa mi slovenčina; tento jazyk je krajší a menej ťažký než poľština.

'menej ťažký' sounds awkward. I'd probably say 'tento jazyk nie je až taký ťažký ako poľština' (this language isn't as hard as Polish) or you can say 'tento jazyk je ľahší než poľština' (this language is easier than Polish)


Well done though! If this is how you actually speak Slovak I think you're more than ready to go to Slovakia! :)
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