TAC 2015 - IpseDixit (pt, lld, fr, he, ru)

[IpseDixit]

I would also like to study when to use por and when para before going to bed.

Done.

· Review the 1st conjugation group. △
· Review the object pronouns.
· Study the hypothetical clauses. ✓
· Memorize the full conjugations of these irregular verbs: ser, estar, haver, ter, querer, poder. △
· Study when to use por and when para. ✓
· Do some listening. ✓
· Try to read an article (or something else) out loud.

· Review pa'al. ✓
· Study pi'el. △
· Study some new prepositions.
· Review the numbers.
· Try to read a short text out loud.
· Complete at least level 1 and 2 of these exercises.

[IpseDixit]

I've just finished to read this article.

· Review the 1st conjugation group. △
· Review the object pronouns.
· Study the hypothetical clauses. ✓
· Memorize the full conjugations of these irregular verbs: ser, estar, haver, ter, querer, poder. △
· Study when to use por and when para. ✓
· Do some listening. ✓
· Try to read an article (or something else) out loud. ✓

· Review pa'al. ✓
· Study pi'el. △
· Study some new prepositions.
· Review the numbers.
· Try to read a short text out loud.
· Complete at least level 1 and 2 of these exercises.

[vijayjohn]

I've just finished to reading this article.

[IpseDixit]

Ok, I understand "reading" instead of "to read", but I've been taught that with just, already and yet you should use the present perfect.

I have a hunch this is a BrE vs AmE thing...

[vijayjohn]

Ok, I understand "reading" instead of "to read", but I've been taught that with just, already and yet you should use the present perfect.

I have a hunch this is a BrE vs AmE thing...

Maybe, although somehow I have my doubts, because I'm pretty sure I've heard British people use the simple past with at least one of those. It seems like using the present perfect with just sounds odd to me, but maybe that's just me, I don't know. You could use it with already, but you don't have to (depending on the context and I guess what exactly you're saying), and I think you'd usually use it with yet.

[IpseDixit]

Google gives 630k results for "I've just finished" against 31mln for "I just finished" ... So maybe it's not a BrE vs AmE thing...

[dEhiN]

Ok, I understand "reading" instead of "to read", but I've been taught that with just, already and yet you should use the present perfect.

I have a hunch this is a BrE vs AmE thing...

Maybe, although somehow I have my doubts, because I'm pretty sure I've heard British people use the simple past with at least one of those. It seems like using the present perfect with just sounds odd to me, but maybe that's just me, I don't know. You could use it with already, but you don't have to (depending on the context and I guess what exactly you're saying), and I think you'd usually use it with yet.

Yeah, I'd agree, at least with already and yet. In fact, I can't think of an example where yet works without the present perfect. I think, for me, the already with or without the present perfect mean the same thing - at least in examples I can think of:

I already did that.
I've already done that.

But with just, I feel like for me, the present perfect use connotes a closer period of time between completing the action and the present:

I just finished. (Implication: I finished a few or several seconds ago)
I've just finished. (Implication: I'm telling you right on the heels of finishing, so perhaps a second or two at most has transpired.)

But this could just be the connotations for me. I think the usage nowadays varies depending on each speaker.

[IpseDixit]

So, I just completed my Portuguese goals except for the conjugation of the irregular verbs (just studied the present indicative of them, but it's ok). I can consider myself satisfied.

· Review the 1st conjugation group. ✓
· Review the object pronouns. ✓
· Study the hypothetical clauses. ✓
· Memorize the full conjugations of these irregular verbs: ser, estar, haver, ter, querer, poder. ∅
· Study when to use por and when para. ✓
· Do some listening. ✓
· Try to read an article (or something else) out loud. ✓

Also, there are a few things I have done that were not in my goals like:

- study the difference between ser and estar
- study the indicative present of a bunch of other irregular verbs, namely: perder, saber, ver, ler, poner, trazer, dizer, fazer.

Now I want to do some more Hebrew before the end of this day (which is quite close).

[Koko]

Ok, I understand "reading" instead of "to read", but I've been taught that with just, already and yet you should use the present perfect.

I have a hunch this is a BrE vs AmE thing...

Maybe, although somehow I have my doubts, because I'm pretty sure I've heard British people use the simple past with at least one of those. It seems like using the present perfect with just sounds odd to me, but maybe that's just me, I don't know. You could use it with already, but you don't have to (depending on the context and I guess what exactly you're saying), and I think you'd usually use it with yet.

Strange… the perfect is used a lot here with those words including "just." Sure with just the simple past it's fine, too. But on a daily basis everyday it's on a daily basis everyday that I use the perfect when I use the perfect everyday… on a daily basis.[*]


[*]the art of tautology can be the art of tautology. Annoying.

[vijayjohn]

That's dialect (or at least speaker-to-speaker) variation in North America for you! (OMG dialect variation in North America is so messy. At least in the US, there are no clear dialects ffs).

Yeah, I'd agree, at least with already and yet. In fact, I can't think of an example where yet works without the present perfect.

Well, what about something like "he asked me how to say 'pray five times a day' in Crimean Gothic, but I didn't know yet"? (Yes, of course there's absolutely nothing weird about me coming up with that example ).

I think, for me, the already with or without the present perfect mean the same thing - at least in examples I can think of:

I already did that.
I've already done that.

Well, yeah, it's the same for me in those cases. But I don't think there's any way to get around using the perfect in something like "I've already been to Mexico." And if somebody unexpectedly said, "Go to the store!" I think the replies "I already did!" "I already did go!" and "I already went!" all make sense to me, but "I already have gone!" sounds a bit odd, and "I already have!" sounds even weirder. (I say "unexpectedly" because I feel that the perfect would make more sense in this context if this was a task that the person making the command had already assigned to the person they're addressing, and the reply is supposed to convey the completion of the task).

But with just, I feel like for me, the present perfect use connotes a closer period of time between completing the action and the present:

I just finished. (Implication: I finished a few or several seconds ago)
I've just finished. (Implication: I'm telling you right on the heels of finishing, so perhaps a second or two at most has transpired.)

But this could just be the connotations for me. I think the usage nowadays varies depending on each speaker.

Nope, that's pretty much how it is for me, too. In fact, when I wrote my last post here, I found an ESL resource that has the example "Dan and Kelly have just had a baby girl" and says that this means the baby was born a few days ago, and I was thinking, "Really? To me, that sentence would suggest that the time of the birth was just moments ago and that Dan and Kelly called the speaker (or someone who informed them) to tell them."

[IpseDixit]

As for Hebrew:

· Review pa'al. ✓
· Study pi'el. △
· Study some new prepositions. ✓
· Review the numbers. ∅
· Try to read a short text out loud. ✓
· Complete at least level 1 and 2 of these exercises ∅.

[dEhiN]

So, I just completed my Portuguese goals except for the conjugation of the irregular verbs (just studied the present indicative of them, but it's ok). I can consider myself satisfied.

· Review the 1st conjugation group. ✓
· Review the object pronouns. ✓
· Study the hypothetical clauses. ✓
· Memorize the full conjugations of these irregular verbs: ser, estar, haver, ter, querer, poder. ∅
· Study when to use por and when para. ✓
· Do some listening. ✓
· Try to read an article (or something else) out loud. ✓

Also, there are a few things I have done that were not in my goals like:

- study the difference between ser and estar
- study the indicative present of a bunch of other irregular verbs, namely: perder, saber, ver, ler, poner, trazer, dizer, fazer.

Good job (Bom trabalho)! At this rate you'll be better at verb conjugation that I am. I guess I tend to prefer the "learn different verb forms in usage" approach which means I learn more slowly all the forms for a given tense/mood/aspect for a particular verb.

That's dialect (or at least speaker-to-speaker) variation in North America for you! (OMG dialect variation in North America is so messy. At least in the US, there are no clear dialects ffs).

What's ffs?

But with just, I feel like for me, the present perfect use connotes a closer period of time between completing the action and the present:

I just finished. (Implication: I finished a few or several seconds ago)
I've just finished. (Implication: I'm telling you right on the heels of finishing, so perhaps a second or two at most has transpired.)

But this could just be the connotations for me. I think the usage nowadays varies depending on each speaker.

Nope, that's pretty much how it is for me, too. In fact, when I wrote my last post here, I found an ESL resource that has the example "Dan and Kelly have just had a baby girl" and says that this means the baby was born a few days ago, and I was thinking, "Really? To me, that sentence would suggest that the time of the birth was just moments ago and that Dan and Kelly called the speaker (or someone who informed them) to tell them."

Yeah I'd agree - "Dan and Kelly have just had a baby girl" to me would me Kelly finished delivering within the span of a few minutes of the speaker saying that. But I think older usage, at least perhaps in BrE used just[/í] that way; I feel like I've heard that usage before when I was a child. I don't know if that's still BrE usage, or if they tend to use [i]just like us (North) Americans .

Also, Ipse, sorry for slightly hijacking your TAC!

[IpseDixit]

Good job (Bom trabalho)! At this rate you'll be better at verb conjugation that I am. I guess I tend to prefer the "learn different verb forms in usage" approach which means I learn more slowly all the forms for a given tense/mood/aspect for a particular verb.

For me it works better to study just one tense of a group of irregular verbs at a time rather than all the tenses of just one verb. I think that with the first approach it is easier to spot certain patterns in irregular verbs.

Btw, obrigado!

Also, Ipse, sorry for slightly hijacking your TAC!

np!

[Naihonn]

Aah, Present Perfect, that annoying bastard among English tenses. It is even more difficult with "him". But I am too lazy and too uneducated to clearly list all those nuances when you use Present Perfect and never Present Simple. And yes, Americans use Present Simple in more situations where it was originally in Present Perfect. Poor me when I have to learn all that.

[IpseDixit]

It can be quite a nightmare especially when in your native language there is a similar looking tense (with to be as copula + the past participle) but with a very different usage.

[vijayjohn]

That's dialect (or at least speaker-to-speaker) variation in North America for you! (OMG dialect variation in North America is so messy. At least in the US, there are no clear dialects ffs).

What's ffs?

For fuck's sake

[PEMbl]

That's a pretty nice way to present your challenge! I like it! I'm especially eager to see how it goes to start Russian from scratch, for obvious reasons I have a question about those three languages, which ones can you actually use in everywhere life where you live, and which one(s) are you mostly gonna have to depend on people on Unilang if you want to converse?

[Youngfun]

You seem to really like Assimil...

Are you using the Italian version for Portuguese?

I didn't use that, but this:

Does it count as Assimil?

I have a hunch this is a BrE vs AmE thing...

No, it's ESL vs real English.

As I've already said elsewhere on Unilang, I was taught the 3-adverb rule: it's mandatory to use the present perfect with the adverbs just, already and never.

[IpseDixit]

That's a pretty nice way to present your challenge! I like it!

Thanks

I'm especially eager to see how it goes to start Russian from scratch, for obvious reasons

This week I'm going to restart Assimil.

I have a question about those three languages, which ones can you actually use in everywhere life where you live and which one(s) are you mostly gonna have to depend on people on Unilang if you want to converse?

I rely mostly on the internet to find native speakers of those languages , not just Unilang though, for example good sites are: shared talk, the polyglot club, and conversationexchange.
Anyways, in Florence there are Brazilians, but honestly I don't know how big the Brazilian community is (I study European Portuguese, though) xD, there's a relatively considerable numer of Israelis who come study here and there are also Russian expats and tourists. But it's not easy to meet them because they live all around the city and the suburbs, it's not that there are specific quarters that are mainly inhabited by immigrants here (except for China Town). I also know that the University of Florence organizes linguistic exchanges, but I've never been to one of those so far.

[Youngfun]

Yeah, if you live in Florence you should learn Wencheng dialect when you go to Osmannoro or Campi Bisenzio; and Drunk English when you meet tourists and Erasmus students in the city centre at night.